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Re: Collisions

Postby martinez » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:30 pm

@Tibi - maybe you have many small objects from ground mesh exported into .x - try to attach them as much as possible. Also - how big is your groundmesh? Are you sure you want to let everybody to drive over grass to the very end of your map? I do this while testing, but finally (especially after protection walls are added) I extrude all these non-driveable areas from .Col - this does almost nothing about game performance, but .x file for sure would be smaller.
Note - I used once only one texture atlas for all roads and terrain. Of course they have to be divided for parts as ground mesh. But for .col generation - it can be one big object with all vertices welded.
Another thing - say you have mid-to-high poly objects (e.g. cars) near the track and drivers can crash on them - build just 4 walls around them instead of treating all these details as colision. The same with bulidings.
Finally - I prefer to have another Max project just for .col generation and I use less textures there - for example I replace stones (if they are general mesh) texture with ground - this makes things easier for Wallaby too, I believe.
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Re: Collisions

Postby Lamda » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:28 am

I can´t understand, why it is told horrible work to add tree collision? it is simple to do, make one, clone and place it from a 3d view (at wallaby), there only one click per tree.... It will only be a problem to find collision on objectbrowser if you moved or replaced object later. So collision should be one of the last steps of project. show to sieversdorf 1.1 wineyard, all these thousend of collisions was made in one day (including a restart by half finished because blue screen without saving before)
The moveable section is a horror for me, i would like to add some different, fences but place 1km fence objects by clone and move/turn every object is a crap.

I dont like BTB and with some experience in max it is same fast to do it in max as made at btb and convert. BTB result isn´t exact on some places and mesh must fix and texturmapping must rework complete to a ttpo. If you use only single files, performacne is much slower and you havn´t chance to make mapping in same quality as ttpo (there many places which can get crossed mapping or complete different as was plan. Many new effects could generate and you have more chance to repair bad look). With powerfull placing tools you get the same possibilitys as BTB. Testing is same easy than BTB, only need to setup and generate basis track files and have a good layer organization. The only problem is to understand 3dsmax, have some aditional tools/plugins and optimise workflow (shortcut setting). If you use both, you allways have to know both tools very well....

I help to finished another guy from germany with his track. Groundmesh was from BTB and cost a lot of time to rework. Quadryfy tools only work for polygones with 4 vertex. I never found a solution (exept stupid handwork) to quadrify polys with more vertex ( it means all on the border between more simplified sections).

For object collision at col file you have to simplyfied the mesh in order as everything "as far from road, as more simplyfied". 380MB are not possible if you had simplified.

At last, there is the bad support and the bad future view for BTB. There many things which braking workflow. Some points was discuss in 2008, some ponts was changed mor to closed trackdesign (i remember, the 4 panel limitation was add after BTB 0.6) and at last the bad x64 support. And nobody knows, there will released a new version or not, the legal version can refresh the licenses and so on.
BTB looks for me as only quick testing tool. there not many tracks was quality released. Many tracks used same objects and textures, the details of road and its mapping is mostly very simple. But these are not the fault of BTB, more fault of user. BTB makes to easy to use shared stuff and slow down workflow to add new one.
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Re: Collisions

Postby tibi » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:22 pm

I send you pm, with pictures of the layout to understand why we need almost the whole ground to col.

First I want to say that it is a conversion from BTB. We used max7 and DirectX exporter from the Czech Site. Hlavi finish the track in BTB, atiwrc made the conversion and working in 3DSMax, and I have the kownledge of the Wallaby related things. I know BTB, and 3dsMax, and the progress of conversion. (My weaker part is the 3dsMax)

Maybe you saw this problem before, when the car try to fall down the ground.:
http://youtu.be/3EZaL-iXaCE?t=2m13s

This caused, by the big poligons. We have the same problem with our new track, so atiwrc tessalated the poligons of the road. After that he added the grass, and other grounds. It was work, we did't fall down nowhere.
After that we tried to add the walls, and near the walls we can fall down again. (Ati will write it more detailed in the next post, it is very strange.... I tested the walls some month ago, and I experienced the same thing. I made a simple plane, and put a small part of the wall on it, and exported it to wallaby, both of them is for ground mesh, and generated col from the same X, I can hit the wall, but I can fall down near the walls. :S )
So on the wireframe which I sent to you, all the ground is tessalated once too. It is 928692 poly/triangle, only the ground.
(Sometimes i don't understand why ati do things... :picchiatesta:, so since then we working on this track, where is every ground poly tessalate once-> so four times more than the original model. But Ati said to me 15 minutes ago, that it work with ground without tessalate, and he tessalate it after the problem of the walls. But he didn't undo this tessalation since then..... : Andry : So we will start it again from a previous backup)

This is the story.
After you say how MB are your X files, I started to thinking, that may you use Panda to export. Today Ati tested and this is the statistic:
This 928692 poly count:
Max7
-directx.X 488.544.783 byte
Max9
-panda (text): 304.584.671 byte
-panda (binary): 123.412.856 byte
-panda (binary compressed) 33.980.048 byte

Ati tried to generate col with Wallaby 0.29b2 but all of them caused error (out of memory).

I want to ask which of this 4 export do you use, Wallaby can use?

As I said before, we will start it again from a previous backup. I will pay attention to the work of my teammates.

I have some questions:

Is it matter that poligons are welded or not? (We didn't weld anything in Max, and I don't know how BTB weld the poligons.)

There is any limitations of polycount of each objects in one X file (for the col generating)

We have not problem with col generating with our first track (Roc 2000), but maybe this is too big project for us.... :|
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Re: Collisions

Postby tibi » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:34 pm

Hello! I'm atiwrc.

So our (other)problem is, that some poligons(the orange and the purple) works good, if the car run on it, when we have only the road and the grass in the col file. (I dont know why but after i hit print screen first, the car and the wall seems to be flipped in wallaby)
http://www.qpic.ws/images/gondg.jpg
http://www.qpic.ws/images/gondb.jpg

But track has a wall here.
http://www.qpic.ws/images/gonda.jpg

We try to add it to the col, but the car want to fall under the road, when the car is on the orange and purple poligons.

The wall hit good. But the car wheel always want to fall.
http://www.qpic.ws/images/gondc.jpg
http://www.qpic.ws/images/gondd.jpg

I try to move up 2-3 meter the wall( i hope that, maybe the problem is that wall poligons can not attach to the ground poligons), but nothing changed, we have problems with the orange and purple poligons.
http://www.qpic.ws/images/gonde.jpg

I try to move under the road 2-3 meter,
http://www.qpic.ws/images/gondf.jpg
more over, move 10 meter under the road, but nothing changed, poligons not work perfect.
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Re: Collisions

Postby tibi » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:09 pm

I'm Tibi again. :)
Lambda you are right! It is a really hard work to convert a finished track from BTB or from somewhere. We spare time to build the track, but we spend more time to find how we can do the steps of the conversion, and which is the simpliest way. For example the tree. You are right that we can do it easily in Wallaby. But maybe it looks so "designed". Trees with the same texture, same height, they "see" the same direction. You can scale it, and rotate it in wallaby, but this is easily randomise in BTB to looks more real. Opposite of this it is a hard work to add collision to it.
And yes, you are right that there is a many tracks with the same textures, models (and a lot of with default xpack...). That is only "playing with LEGO", thats not Trackmodelling. Most of the users can't know BTB features. I alway write them to read the HELP, and watch Brendon videos on Youtube, and after that they can start making tracks. But they did not do this, and always ask very simple questions...

Our track is the opposite of these tracks, Hlavi tried to put everything on his real place, tried to make it as real as he could. There is a border beetween the performance and the realism. We are searching for this yet.
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Re: Collisions

Postby eno72 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:13 pm

Hi, just a quick reply, I'll be back on it next week.

However, for the moment I attach my own Panda settings, but I work with max 2011 64bit. There are other little variations around you can find (there's one on Miro's blog), but I stick to this one because I've never had a single issue.
pandasettings_eno72.jpg


What I can say from Ati's pictures is that:
- purple poligons are way too big and irregular for COL purposes
- the long and narrow polygons between orange and purple, and where the wall is, are to be avoided!

I continue not to understand why your COL file gets so big, even after seeing your pictures.
I also attach a pic of the COL mesh of Loch Ard, so you can have an idea. Maybe it's not ideal from some points of view, but the numbers are these: 8,5Km long, 40-45m wide, with collision walls all along and including all the trees, rocks and other objects. 215000 faces (triangles) giving 14 mega for the col file.
Make a comparison with the drivable surface of your track and see if numbers match or not. Keep in mind that vertexes are all welded.
Loch_COL.jpg


ah, I read now your last post: Lamda (and not LAMBDA as some of you write : Wink : ) intended that he clones ONLY the collision mesh in wallaby, that is the tree cms. He does not clone the trees, he just puts the "yellow" collisions over them. You can do that in wallaby, after you have one instance of the collision you can clone only the collision without the object, that's why he says that afterwards it's difficult to delete one particular collision, because it is not associated with an object.
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Re: Collisions

Postby Lamda » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:16 pm

i use panda too, with similar (same ?) settings. and it working well too.

for export from max, there must check for dummy objects or single vertex without mesh. borh will crash during import at wallaby.

your collision for this wall is to detailed, make only a sqare box. whenn it is direct on the road, add general collision by cloning tree collision (or whatever).

But maybe it looks so "designed". Trees with the same texture, same height, they "see" the same direction. You can scale it, and rotate it in wallaby, but this is easily randomise in BTB to looks more real. Opposite of this it is a hard work to add collision to it.


you misunderstut, i never tell you to plant complete trees in wallaby, that is totaly wrong way (you detect the reason yourself). i use jar planter plugin for max and place all vegitation with it (there are similar automatism as btb)
in wallaby i clone only the collision box. first plant one object, assign collision, go in to objectbrowser and clone collision item. than you can place by mouse click. only need to click on the right place.

My complete col mesh of sieversdorf have 54 MB filesize.

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Re: Collisions

Postby tibi » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:47 am

eno72 wrote:
What I can say from Ati's pictures is that:
- purple poligons are way too big and irregular for COL purposes
- the long and narrow polygons between orange and purple, and where the wall is, are to be avoided!


Yes maybe there are big poligons. But how can you explain my test some weeks ago?
I make a simple plane, and put 5 type of wall on it. Maybe the poligons of the plane is a bit large, but I have only problem with the ground near the walls. :S

http://www.qpic.ws/images/col1.jpg
http://www.qpic.ws/images/col2.jpg


eno72 wrote:I continue not to understand why your COL file gets so big, even after seeing your pictures.
I also attach a pic of the COL mesh of Loch Ard, so you can have an idea. Maybe it's not ideal from some points of view, but the numbers are these: 8,5Km long, 40-45m wide, with collision walls all along and including all the trees, rocks and other objects. 215000 faces (triangles) giving 14 mega for the col file.
Make a comparison with the drivable surface of your track and see if numbers match or not. Keep in mind that vertexes are all welded.

You have 215000 triangle = 14 mega. I have 928000 triangle--> 4.3 * 14MB= 60.42MB.
We get 123Mb with panda (binary) and maybe it is because a lot of our poligons are maybe not welded. (I can't see now, the max files are on Ati's PC.)
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Re: Collisions

Postby tibi » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:57 am

Lamda wrote:i use panda too, with similar (same ?) settings. and it working well too.

for export from max, there must check for dummy objects or single vertex without mesh. borh will crash during import at wallaby.

Okay, We will check them. But when we importing for general, and ground mesh, we have no problem. Only when generating the .col

Lamda wrote:your collision for this wall is to detailed, make only a sqare box. whenn it is direct on the road, add general collision by cloning tree collision (or whatever).

I dont think it is so detailed, 2 box for the repeating pattern. (And this is equal the 3d of the general object model, We tried to spare time, when use the model to its collision. )
Sorry that I misunderstood the trees. I tried this clone of collision. It do it much faster to add Collision boxes. (This before I try to assign more collision mesh to an object, but it is a hell to move, and rotate, and a scale them. With your "method" we are only take care on the rotation. Thanks for the tip.
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Re: Collisions

Postby Lamda » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:07 pm

Okay, We will check them. But when we importing for general, and ground mesh, we have no problem. Only when generating the .col
sometimes Wallaby working not logical. I don´t know, but maybe there different rules between sort of meshes ....

you can allways add general collision in same, but please dont do for moveable. There not assign collision to mesh can be generate CTD (for some people it do for some not, sometimes it do, sometimes not, it´s a real gamble in code (Workerbee told me))

i did a test dx file with 110mb, there was no problem to import or to generate a col file. maybe your own memory is to low? my complete max file is 246 mb but max take 3,5GB in memory. maybe it was a similar effect for wallaby during import?

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